Ah, okay. “*Forty* years of quiet.” Which isn’t final at all. More bloodshed to come!
I’m obviously not arguing against Israel defending itself. If it’s a matter of Jewish survival, sure, take out the mullahs. But as I’ve said before, the swords don’t become ploughshares and the spears don’t become pruning hooks by unsheathing all the swords and spears and running up the body count.
This has been part of our disagreement all along. Implacable enemies must be defeated to the extent that they cry “uncle.” Anything less, there will be more of the same a few years along. “Forty Years,” is a euphemism meaning that there will be peace for at least a few generations.
I hope so, too. But where in Torah does it say, “You shall crush your enemies, and then all will be well.”
Also, the messianic vision is for the entire world to be at peace, not just the People of Israel. You know, “light unto the nations.” Pounding the neighbors into submission may be necessary for Israel’s survival, but I don’t imagine the nations will see much light emanating from the carnage.
You refuse to hear what I am saying. Our enemies have a short and simple way to peace: quit attacking us. In the Torah is says the one who comes to kill you, kill him first. The Torah also teaches us that all will be well when the people of Israel follow the Torah. Then and only then will Israel be a light unto the nations. You seem obsessive in conflating the Jewish Messianic world view and Christian “End of Times” beliefs. You have said so many times in our discussions. I do not know what those Christian beliefs are except in a vague way, and they are not relevant to anything I am writing because of that. They are for a Christian to write about, not me.
Re: “You seem obsessive in conflating the Jewish Messianic world view and Christian “End of Times” beliefs.” Yes, I am obsessed by these two visions because (a) they are intimately related in a way that, say, Judaism and Hinduism are not, and (b) how Christian visions and beliefs morph into actions will shape my family’s future here in the Diaspora.
The threats you & I face are related but not identical. Unless I make aliyah, in which case we’ll be in the exact same boat.
Alan, where would we be if we didn't annoy one another? Btw, I am pay walling posts over 3 months old. Because you are such a valuable contributor to the conversation on A Pisgah Site, and I know that you speak for many American Jews, eloquently, I am changing your subscription to a full paid for a year.
Wow! That’s extremely kind of you, Ehud. Except now I’m gonna feel guilty for not paying. … In any case, thank you for the free subscription and for your generosity of spirit. My Mom used to tell me, “If you have something nice you could say to someone, say it.” And you always do. Your feed is filled with praise, restacks, endorsements, encouragement, and general good will to people you follow here. In this world of limited (and competitive) attention, many of us have come to believe that lifting up other people diminishes the one doing the lifting. Thank you for regularly reminding us that life is not a zero-sum game.
What happens after the “final battle“? Does this final bloodbath usher in the messianic age?
(Shedding human blood in a final redemptive conflict sounds more like a Christian story than a Jewish one.)
The final redemptive conflict is the most seminal of Jewish stories. Christianity borrowed it.
After defeating Iran? It is enough for us to have forty years of quiet. I hope and pray for more, but that is enough.
Ah, okay. “*Forty* years of quiet.” Which isn’t final at all. More bloodshed to come!
I’m obviously not arguing against Israel defending itself. If it’s a matter of Jewish survival, sure, take out the mullahs. But as I’ve said before, the swords don’t become ploughshares and the spears don’t become pruning hooks by unsheathing all the swords and spears and running up the body count.
This has been part of our disagreement all along. Implacable enemies must be defeated to the extent that they cry “uncle.” Anything less, there will be more of the same a few years along. “Forty Years,” is a euphemism meaning that there will be peace for at least a few generations.
Yup, we’ve done this before.
You say “forty years” is a euphemism. Is “final” in “final battle” a euphemism too?
I hope not. I hope it is final. I hope the People of Israel will have everlasting peace.
I hope so, too. But where in Torah does it say, “You shall crush your enemies, and then all will be well.”
Also, the messianic vision is for the entire world to be at peace, not just the People of Israel. You know, “light unto the nations.” Pounding the neighbors into submission may be necessary for Israel’s survival, but I don’t imagine the nations will see much light emanating from the carnage.
You refuse to hear what I am saying. Our enemies have a short and simple way to peace: quit attacking us. In the Torah is says the one who comes to kill you, kill him first. The Torah also teaches us that all will be well when the people of Israel follow the Torah. Then and only then will Israel be a light unto the nations. You seem obsessive in conflating the Jewish Messianic world view and Christian “End of Times” beliefs. You have said so many times in our discussions. I do not know what those Christian beliefs are except in a vague way, and they are not relevant to anything I am writing because of that. They are for a Christian to write about, not me.
Thanks, Ehud. I hope I haven’t annoyed you.
Re: “You seem obsessive in conflating the Jewish Messianic world view and Christian “End of Times” beliefs.” Yes, I am obsessed by these two visions because (a) they are intimately related in a way that, say, Judaism and Hinduism are not, and (b) how Christian visions and beliefs morph into actions will shape my family’s future here in the Diaspora.
The threats you & I face are related but not identical. Unless I make aliyah, in which case we’ll be in the exact same boat.
Alan, where would we be if we didn't annoy one another? Btw, I am pay walling posts over 3 months old. Because you are such a valuable contributor to the conversation on A Pisgah Site, and I know that you speak for many American Jews, eloquently, I am changing your subscription to a full paid for a year.
Wow! That’s extremely kind of you, Ehud. Except now I’m gonna feel guilty for not paying. … In any case, thank you for the free subscription and for your generosity of spirit. My Mom used to tell me, “If you have something nice you could say to someone, say it.” And you always do. Your feed is filled with praise, restacks, endorsements, encouragement, and general good will to people you follow here. In this world of limited (and competitive) attention, many of us have come to believe that lifting up other people diminishes the one doing the lifting. Thank you for regularly reminding us that life is not a zero-sum game.